🧲 FloatyRocks - LK99 recap of counter evidence and end of season 1 🥹

Welcome to Floaty Rock's FM. the spaces and podcast that brings you all the news about LK99. the podcast started last week. and it seems that today is its last episode, at least for the season. My name's Alex Volkov. I'm the host. I'm not a scientist. I think it's very important to say this in the beginning. I am not a scientist. I have a very little science background.

If not at all, And, my place here is to just give a place to scientists, to folks who read about different news, and to the community, the ones to to get updates about this momentous event that we had, and we'll cover about everything that gets updated and, to collect people around this topic. And, so I'm I'm I'm the host of the space together with me. We have Daniel, and we have Sanhuyeon which I'll let them, introduce themselves in a minute.

but till then, I just wanna say that, the reason for recording this space and then to have a podcast is that people just wanted to know what happens with this whole thing. there was a a big release that happened, and many people started wondering what the what is the and some of us has been following this since the, since the beginning before the hype. And, many people did not know where to go and what to ask for. And so we had several spaces. Some of the spaces we had were attended by I wanna say 20,000 people, one of the first faces.

And, not many people on Twitter. So we've started collecting collecting this into floating rocks, the the fan podcast. As as as to myself, I I do weekly spaces on different topics. I do weekly spaces on the AI. There there's an additional buckets there. And, I, I welcome you to follow me and then join the Thursday ice bases. And I was just at the right place in the right time and collected the right people and then moderated some, some places of conversation. And I think this is enough for us to get started.

I will introduce I will introduce Sanghyeon who's, from now on, we'll be, however, my favorite friend, hey, Sanghyeon.

Hello, everyone.

Can can you hear me? Yeah. I can hear you fine. Hello. Hello.

so let me introduce myself briefly. I am a software engineer living in, South Korea. And, Okay. Let me let me promote and advertise what I am working on for a bit. So so so yeah. Yeah. Our company is a startup that was established in, 2014. And we work on making AI accessible to the property. And, it's a Saturday weekend in here in Korea.

And this weekend, we have a Python courier which is on a Python conference in Korea. now back to offline event in 4 years after the, COVID 19 pandemic. And, So we prepared the demonstration for, serving the large language model there from the our, cloud service called the cloud back end dot ai.

And, so people can, ask and chat with the larger language model associates, from the Facebook and the Falcon from the Abu Dhabi and, also from the Korean ARPAKA from the It is a South Korean company like a WhatsApp. And, so so our event is that, this is a Python conference So instead of writing a Python code yourself, you should write, you should instruct the larger language model there to write on Python code that accomplish the certain specification.

And if you succeed, you get a chance to win the switch from the Nintendo with the, legendary edition of the, legend of Zelda.

San Khan, can you can you introduce your Yeah. Your yourself, as it relates to the floating rocks thing, and then at the end, we'll do some plugs and personal personal promotion?

I I didn't get this.

can can you talk about yourself, in in in regards LK99, how you got to to the green room, how you got to the space, and kinda what what you've been following and focusing on for the past 12 days.

Oh, okay. So, I first discovered about the story of room temperature and beyond to pressure a superconductor called the LK99. From the hacker news, it was the on the front page is top position for a long time. And, so I and my friends were discussing about what this might be in a Discord center.

And, it it was it was Friday, I think. And on settle the, myself and, 2 of my friends. So three friends and bets on, to eat dinner, and we went through the, three paper word by word, the page by page, and, all the interviews done by the people from the quantum energy research center at the time.

And I think we made some surprising discovery that was not covered by, people commenting on the event. So we wrote article called on LK99 papers. And, it broke out and I somehow got kidnapped to this space and, so so I joined the first space and talked about how the, Korean paper published in, Korean journal of Crystal and Crystal Growth Technology.

is, talking about the breakage of quartz tube and, dying ratio of their, professors. and also about how the heat capacity diagram is missing in other papers because of the region, and after that, So on the Monday, I couldn't work because I I I was distracted.

So I wait on on schedule the day you open, so I went to the national library, national library of Korea, which is on the high hill on the social district. because, I mean, such a is in a a low it it's a low landing tower, and it is prone to plotting and, library containing lots of paper books should avoid the plotting. So it is high on the heels.

So so I went up in the hot summer heat and waited for the some of the materials that it's not available on 9, and I I posted them the photographing reproduce reproduction on on the Twitter. And, so so the interest criteria in South Korea was overwhelming.

So I had to create a new Discord server, so I can I don't crowd the existing Discord center, and I invited the interest people which we grew to noteworthy people in South Korea, and we did a lot of archive dive and research and share the result on the Twitter. And, thank you for following me, and you you would like the result. So that's it.

But, like, this weekend, we so Python Korea is a big event for us and it is actually our first time publicly demonstrating the, online serving mobile language language model. So we are also excited.

Awesome. if you guys in Korea, check out check out this icon, and and definitely for SunCal. I wanted to use our second cohort here. Daniel, yeah, feel free to introduce yourself. and, yeah, welcome. Good morning.

Alex. Hi, everyone. And, well, thank you for, having me. I, I'm a physicist with, well, PhD and condensed matter physics. And, well, right now, I'm a an engineer working in the 3 d printing division. of HP, but what I'm doing here is completely unrelated. I'm now on annual leave, so I'm taking the opportunity that I have some time. And I well, I usually post the threads about physics in Hebrew, and, and tried to share, interesting things about physics.

And when this, broke out, I thought here's a great opportunity to talk about superconductors, and I I ran through the the list of applications and how this could improve our lives if we had, room temperature superconductors. And I got pretty excited myself because a lot of those things are have been evolving over time.

And, and I found out there are new applications that I was not aware of at the time of my studies, and it's got, well, for a a Twitter thread in Hebrew about science it it got a whole lot of attention, and that's how, we got to, you know, discuss with each other and and, I joined the green room to discuss, the findings and what was the evolving situation with, papers and reproduction. So I'm I'm really interested in this topic. and I like every opportunity to talk about physics.

That's awesome, Daniel, and for joining us as well. and, I will just say, Daniel mentioned the green roof. So maybe some folks don't know the first space we did, which is open the group a room to coordinate the conversations and the host, what topics to to talk about who's talking next, you know, not to talk over each other. And then, we had Andrew McAlup there, the guy who's, affectionately named Stacy Cowboys because he works at Farvest Place and just decided to start and see if he can replicate LP 99 at the back of his office after hours.

And then suddenly, then you spoke to the effect of how much Elgin 99 took over the public discourse and people who started talking about science. Andrew did not expect that, you know, all of the internet pretty much will follow him and watch 5000 people live with what a kiln or just, you know, basically a microwave stick away on Twitch. And so, Andrew joined that room and then following that, Duncan joined this room, y'all, with the folks in the audience, Yuri and and fedora and and some other folks from from this green room, we just started talking over there.

some point, I think we had 2 or 3 people at active replication attempts of LK99, and they were sharing tips. And then we were, like, discussing news as they came in in the group DM, and then we kind of, published those news as well. And, yeah, here we are. All of this happened in, you know, 12 days, maybe 13 days. I think Andrew said it was 12 days since he started, meissner effect or bust, until he eventually concluded and gave is samples to USC.

And I guess, maybe this is the kind of the point number 1, then you you brought it up telling me you as well that the amount of just excitement that that this topic generated around the world. and I would love for him to to hear from you something. First of all, because you're on the ground as well. This, you know, came out from Korea. but definitely the whole world started, you know, for for following folks who speak Korean asking for translations, asking for the mood on the ground, etcetera. So, has that changed significantly since the last place we've talked about? this, we've talked about this on Tuesday, I believe.

So, has the mood changed in your group and in your peer group in Korea? Talk talk to us a little bit about that.

okay. So the mood in our Discord server in Korea hasn't changed much. because, I mean, we haven't really seen the, new evidence to to update in our opinion but the moved in moved in general in South Korea had gone, very much against this being the actual room temperature for conductor because of update. So, So I will summarize the, brief state or, current state of the LK99.

So I mean, room temperature, superconductor, it's an extraordinary claim. So it does require extraordinary evidence And when the first three prints were uploaded to archive, people were excited for 2 reasons, the first being the the synthesis may feel the same, the simple enough to try for them therapies unlike the other claimed that conduct to be, either data manipulation or, proud or, mistaken.

There was one, such a claim of room temperature, superconductor, actually, in 2018, and that if you look at the paper, that paper explicitly states that, they suspect some impurity is, creating a superconducting effect, and you need to order the specific lot of the ingredient from the, scientific ingredient to company, and no more ingredient to want to work. like, that that's crazy. And even then people tried to replicate that work like room temperature BT.

It's such a large claim that people are willing to buy the specimen lots to replicate. And, okay, 99 was mostly simpler than that.

And the presented evidence is of the levitation and the paid changing while lowering the temperature and also the, measurement of resistance was pretty convincing, given that the data is not fabricated, if if it is not fabricated, so what changed it in the last few days is that, people came up with some alternative planation of the the surprising observations, like the, paper from taking university, gave on their theory of how things might levitate without being a superconductor.

And the Chinese Academy of Science paper, pointed out that there is an impurity in, of the copper certified, and copper certified is, well known to have an, complex bait transition from solid to solid and, the critical temperature reported in the paper could be explained by the, impurity of copper certified.

And, to prove their point, so so there are 2 kinds of page transition called the 1st order page transition and second order page transition. and as I understand, I I'm not a physicist or a scientist. I'm a software engine engineer major in computer science, but My understanding is, so so there is an so when the water change the bait from the, ice to water to, boiling water vapor. there is a light on the heat.

so so there is a summer heat terraces that it acts differently in a warming direction direction and cooling direction. And, so detailed first order based direct transition and sec super conductivity is usually understood that the second order based transition which does not have a lot of heat. So there there should not be thermal heat services. And Chinese economy of science is the example and analyzed their sample. And they found that the thermal heat nurses in, warming and cooling, and that should not happen for some super conductivity.

So they concluded that the critical temperature reported in the pay paper is due to the solely to solely the base transition of copper certified, and it is very convincing. so so they are only, only talking about their own samples but it provides an, nice explanation of surprising observation. So so So then that doesn't necessarily apply to the, sample is produced by quantum energy research center. the current status is that extra ordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Then at first, evidence is the same extraordinary but, some ordinary explanation was suggested by Packing University and Chinese Academy of Science. And there was an, theoretical paper, how it could be superconducting from the, is it, Ruren Spokely National Library and, they talked about how the corporate substitution has, 2 front, place it and, one is more stable than the other.

And, international team of, pieces 10 candidates to consisting of, fifteen people from 3 countries with, very popular, very famous and being named in science came up with a comprehensive paper how such substitution solution is energetically unfavorable and very unlikely. it is also very convincing while keeping the theoretical folk may not actually, realize So so that's why the, academic, world is pretty skeptical.

And there was, social, there is the professor, Michael Peter, commented on Twitter during the entire time, in our opinion, in a very even handed way, unlike some other accounts, I must say. And, YouTube channel called the bad boy of Science interviewed the microcomputer for 1 hour on LK99. Instead, so so I very highly recommend that, interview. that is probably better than what we could playing in this space. So so better about it.

So let's close it down. I'm just joking. Yes. Michael Fair was very, like, he, he wasn't hyping, but he also wasn't like, Hey, this is not totally fine. He was just clear about the facts, and the video that You just talked about it into a double space, and folks are welcome to to check it out. I am also a neuroscientist, I'm way less of a scientist than Sankang because He just mentioned multiple things that I wouldn't know, and I wanna ask Daniel about. but, definitely my computer is is I think he's professor of physics in Melbourne, and definitely check out this video.

So, Michael, uh-uh, sorry, Daniel, I want to ask you about some of the status I can brought up if you don't fine. So, phase transition, can you give us, like, a brief popular sciency explanation of what phase transition means?

I think, yeah, it's a really important now because we're seeing now lots of types of phase transitions. And the ones we are used to are the very dramatic ones, like water, evaporating as a phase transition, but the atoms are going way off their initial positions. water freezing is a phase transition, but that's, atoms and molecules, completely losing mobility.

and the the superconducting phase transition, as, as as Siawe mentioned, is you could call it a very gentle one only involves the electrons, the the centers of the atoms, the course, they don't move at all when there's a superconducting phase transition, and only the electrons change how they behave. and And the new phase transition we're talking about now, the copper sulfide is a solid solid phase transition. So a material is 22 solid phases.

And the difference between them is the arrangement of the copper and sulfur atom chain. So it's a a very delicate movement of the atoms. It usually involves, a change in volume and And as mentioned, also a lot of a lot of parameters will change, like heat capacity, like conductivity, in this case, but it's a it's a very gentle face transition. And if if you're curious, water, for example, water is one of the most crazy complicated materials in in nature. Water now we know about 23 solid phases of water. Some of them have been measured.

Most of them have been measured. Some of them are only theorized using DFT. But and and if you know the book, well, there's a a ICE 9 by Kurt Vanugate, or it's a concept that appears in one of his it's, like, a a fictionalized phase of water that could be very harmful. It doesn't exist.

I I did not know that the family faces in in water, and I do wanna ask you about the specific face position, inside. So how can I right? So so you, sorry. Not you. a queue center for for releases the paper, then release another paper. Both these papers have, like, instructions of how to create lg99, many, many labs. and people around the world for it to replicate this, including this, Chinese economy or Beijing Beijing Academy, and the thread that discusses this. It's been to the top of the of the space. Folks are interested.

And, these folks from Shoop Lab. I think also did some work around this, Daniel. I think you you mentioned, they're very respected and you you you trusted some of the signs that they did, and they talked about the face detection specifically of copper sulfide that exists within within these samples. And, and that it could be attributed potentially to, what acute center has detected in in in their samples and and describing their papers.

could you extrapolate on this a little bit, because as far as I've seen from at least Michael Thurer and some other folks, you know, they're they're not saying, hey. This is not fraud. Like, these people are not fraudsters. It's not like, Sankaj just mentioned, Duranga Dice, superconductor that was, like, very problematic and all of the scientists in the world that hear the Room temperature superconductor now are like, oh, yeah. It's definitely fraud. So it does not seem like the the the rockler fraudsters. However, this fake or could explain a potential measurement that they saw at at certain temperatures.

So and, could you connect the dots for us there with, like, what is the CU to S, a copper sofa and how it relates to, how its face transition relates to the measurements that they sign? in 99 and, what could potentially show as a superconductor?

Yeah. So all the initial discussion was especially the theory was around the chemical formula that was put forward by, Lee and Kim. Now, just by, you know, counting the proportions of copper and lead, it was should have been obvious from the start. that you're going to have other things because in the, in the precursors, you have sort of equal amounts of copper and lead, And in the final product, you have a ratio of 1 to 9. So the extra copper's gotta go somewhere. The reaction is in a closed, volume. so you're gonna have lots of other stuff.

And if you ignore it, you are assuming that all that other stuff is inert. It doesn't change. It doesn't have an effect on the LK99. And over time, we saw with the reproductions and with the more detailed characterization that when you do this reaction, you get a ton of different materials, and and I I think not all the reproductions produced the exact same thing. So probably it wasn't the exact same combination of, of materials in their samples. And then on top of that, there's a selection process.

So they crush their rocks they'd select by magnetic properties. So it properly appears like every lab was analyzing somewhat of a different material. And between all of that, copper sulfide actually showed up in the XBS measurements, so this was also clear that it was in many of the samples that were produced around the world and in the original paper. And I think that this didn't draw much attention until, you know, the the 12 days, passed.

and and scientists who apparently are more familiar with this noticed that this is a material that actually has very interesting properties and and phase change within the relevant temperature range. And, and so in this paper from, is it a Beijing University?

well, they measured copper sulfide itself, one showed that phase transition and a very large change of resistivity, at the same temperature range where LK99 supposedly, has the superconducting phase transition So it could be what, was being measured at the original paper. And it's important to notice. I think we got into this when we thought that LK99 was a 1d superconductor.

If you have a big insulator, I mean, this big insulator, you have just a few conducting paths, a narrow paths from one to the other, you can dramatically change the overall resistivity even on if only a small volume of the sample becomes conducting. It's like think of, having one river through the desert or few rivers, the area of the desert that is covered with water is tiny, but you can have a rather large flow of water across the desert just by having, you know, 2 or 3 Rivers.

And this is what happens if you had a superconducting transition, but it also happens if you just have a conductor transition, and there's a whole theory about how how exactly how much conductor you need in the insulator to have conductance, and it's called the theory of percolation.

And, and, and this could explain how with very small amounts of copper sulfide in the the whole bulk of the sample, changing phase, you could have a big sample become, from high resistivity to low which, but doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, the the whole, the whole new material is superconducting, like, like, the claim is, right, which is, like, a huge claim, and we're still waiting for this claim.

And, one thing that that I saw, from my computer, and I wanted to kinda run by you as well, is that we're seeing, so the this, a copper sofa, the CU 2 S, from from Chinese Economy of Sciences Beijing. it just talks about a potential of this material to explain the measurements. Correct? it doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, Q Center especially something that's false, or it doesn't necessarily mean that this is what also they had.

Yeah. So the the context is very important. So the first thing the first question was theoretically can there be super connectivity in this material? Then it turns out that there's lots of phases. It's a it's a pretty dirty synthesis. so it became very unclear what exactly was the composition. So that discussion got very muddied, but there was still one measurement that that made the whole thing a very interesting, subject, and it's if they measured superconductivity, then we need to get to the bottom of this.

So find out if it's the chemical formula is correct and how to do it, but if if there's a measurement of super connectivity, It doesn't matter that the work was sloppy. We gotta find what it was, whatever it was that is superconducted.

Once we find an alternative explanation for that measurement, then the whole thing then there's an alternative explanation for the whole set of of measurements, you know, mixtures of magnetic, diamagnetic, ferromagnetic, especially now that we know that it's a mixture of lots of materials, can explain the magnetic measurements, which are not that hard evidence on itself, but now there's an additional explanation potential explanation because it hasn't been demonstrated that this is actually the case, but there is something that can explain the hardest of of superconductivity, I think, and in in my personal opinion, and for many people, the whole thing becomes much less interesting.

So there's still a chance. Maybe, you know, it's just a coincidence that copper sulfide has a face in engine there and that the LK99 has a superconducting phase transition, but there is an alternative reasonable explanation for everything And so the the the level of interest just drops significantly.

It feels like, to some extent, it's already dropped, and many people kinda joined the town and said, hey. this is so over, and we're so so over, and this is, like, the final, it's so over for at least many people because there is an alternative explanation. And like you said, when the paper is released and after sleuthing happened around whether or not, you know, the authors and the messiness of the release papers kinda was unscientific after this was a little bit clear what the Sankan said also is that potentially this added to the virality on Twitter and everything. Besides the potential huge out the fact that it's fairly quickly replicable.

And we when you're back at, I don't know, end of end of July, then we'll we'll know either way fairly quickly. Right? We'll know either way because, like, I feel, folks will start replicate. I don't know if, the folks in Q Q Center expected as many people starting to replicate in different places. And, but definitely, it it seems like we're at least at the end of the saga. specific because we now have potentially alternative explanation. And, then, you know, I want to ask one more thing before we get to to maybe something to to add some additional things.

is, a question about, it's no longer very interesting for us to see videos of different magnetic effects. And we've seen plenty. Right? We've seen some from Andrew McAllop and then, the folks in University of Southern California that he best his samples to said that he had potentially iron mixes in there, and we've seen a bunch of videos from, was at Host in in China and some other places. They also had some magnetic reaction, whether it's, the dynamic or ferromagnetic. we're no longer like, these videos, no the matter as much because there's an alternative explanation.

is there anything in those videos? You know, is there a video that comes up and sparks interest again? in your mind? Like, what, what, what do we need to see that, like, we'll also spark interest, or are we done with videos when we're looking for data that Q center needs to provide?

Well, yeah, we we've seen, and it's it's interesting. I think most peep most people haven't thought what what would room temperature superconductivity look like exactly, or is there a simple test you can do on it using a magnet to to separate it from the whole other magnetic effect? still think if you look at the flux spinning videos of real superconductors, the fact that you can slide them across a magnet, that that would be, I think if I saw something like that, that would spark, I think, new interest in in whatever, material you're proposing.

So those where you they make a rail or just put a superconductor near they freeze it near a magnet, and then it's fluff spend, but flux bin means it can move across, the magnet, in one d or in two d that depends on shape. that's something that, I think, would still be worth looking at. All the things that the the the rocks floating and you know, they're tilted, and they can be there's somewhat held in place. we have now an alternative explanation for that.

Yeah. So it's less interesting now, especially when there's so many fake videos that we saw that come out or at least, you know, attempt to fix and then be reposting. Sorry. This is a fake video. this is less interesting. Only videos that come out from from a significant labs. Sankan, you had comment on everything you said before, or you wanna move on and to to ask some questions going forward?

Okay. So on the video, the magnetic pro14, So, as everybody pointed out, it's easy to bake. Like, you actually need to trust the source is not baking the video. So with when we know the video is not fake, there are some, things that could move the direction in the evidence of something interesting, like the We have seen lots of a half levitation.

We may see the full levitation. And another thing to do is that that as I understand, it is complicated because it, involves lots of different forces, but theory of a half limitation proposed by pecking university depends on the vector of gravity. And you can change the how it works by, doing the upside down. Like, you you turn the magnet 88, 118 degree.

And how it reacts to the, upside down should be different from the actual superconduct and the proposed mechanism. So that could be interesting. And as for the criticism of, Chinese Academy Science actually also has a proper, recasted the, original team to update the paper for the including both the warming and cooling carb. And, since they have the sample it is a simple retest, and it will 2 center updated their paper to include the boost cooling carbon warming call.

that would be very interesting. And if that doesn't show the, first order paid transition that is against the evidence of the superconductivity like this example from the Chinese economy of science that would be a peak update.

So, I just been to with you something that came out, a few minutes ago from VPS Alana. VPS Alana is, a Indian scientist and his team who tried to replicate. Since the beginning, thing. They were one of the first people who replicated, and then they had big chunks of LP 99 and didn't see any magnetism. It seems so, so long ago, Daniel, but it was a few days ago that people were trying to levitate the rocks, right, and since then, we've moved on to, like, more, precise methods of of measurements.

and so the update there is they also didn't find any, efforts of super activity, which is also interesting because there's multiple people replicating and receiving multiple samples of different markup and different a, you know, that they need to brush the rocks and then search for the ones who who magnetize and then test those. but I it feels like what just as a summary, the the the the proof is on the queue center right now.

And, like Sankan said, there is a suggestion of how to actually do this, which is not super super complex for the folks in Center to, to to present kind of their findings, which is, which is interesting because, you know, the previous examples in this world of conductivity were either fraud or fake or very, very complex. And now we've talked about in this space as multiple times that, you know, the messiness of the paper was due to some rogue employee who's no longer there. I think the first paper, and there was a reaction in the second paper.

but then they went to media and stood behind this finding and, talked about LK99 being superconductor. even said they will work with other scientists. And as far as we saw, not a lot of other places received, the sample that they've created, and, but some corresponded with them. So this, PPS, I I wanna Indian, scientists, he definitely said at least. And I think showed screenshots of, communicating, I think with with Kentak, Kim, or, or, or Souq Bailey.

And, it's very interesting that, like, we're back to almost square one in terms of who now needs to produce evidence, whether or not this is, yeah, this is an actual superconductor in that SKU Center, and there is a path for them to do this. I don't know if there's an plans of theirs doing this. I know the maybe sometime you can, you can join here, but I've seen floating around some tweets about there will and something in next month or, etcetera. I couldn't find the source for this. and, Duncan, if you do have something that, you know, in terms of, like, the interviews that they have.

I think there was, like, 2 or 3 interviews with Hintech and and Lee, whether or not there's more to be seen soon or are we, you know, just are we done with this until further notice, basically?

I need to check the source, but 18th say something about doing the, like, something like a press conference at the end of the month. And the timing suggests that it may be related to the, peer review of the manuscript currently in submission. And I think they are planning to do the press conference after the, weight of the paper is decided.

And that's the APL, peer review that that they submitted for peer review, the the first paper in Korean. Correct?

Searchumstantial evidence. It's a suggest to then ERC display peer material. We don't have the definitive statement. It is an inference, but I think it is a pretty reliable insurance.

And so, I think the only place that at least I saw that that I actually they provided a sample to was, USD or Cantech. Samuel, can you talk about the the provided sample and kind of what they measured in they didn't measure the do you do you have this on the top of your head?

So so so we know there are multi percent for it the different temperature because the contact came produced the the 2 different videos and, we can plainly see in those two videos, the two stampers are in a different shape and, so so So they behave a bit differently also.

So, and from the, interview, of the so to can take the Korean energy technology, the the the Edison University backed by the Keppel Korean Electric CTM power company, Gucci is a monopoly electricity transmission operator in South Korea. And, there actually is a superconducting power transmission line in production in South Korea that was world 1st, and Cintech worked on that.

of course, there is a room temperature superconductor. They are calling it with the, the I don't know how they call it, but anyway. so so can take Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can take that that they have a sample?

and, they are analyzing it for the practical application, you know, power transmission, and they also stated that they are interested in the scientific controversy of whether it is a superconductor or not because they are not interested in the question, like, if we conduct the electricity, well, they don't care about whether it is a superconductor. They also mentioned something like, so so there's a copper wire and aluminum wire and wire, copper may conduct electricity better.

It is also heavier So it is a problematic for actual construction over power transmission line. So so the aluminum is lighter. So even with the higher resistance aluminum may be preferable for transport transportable electricity. So so so that's the context angle, like if even if we attach a higher registers, if we eat is lighter, it is good enough for us or something like that. And we also know from the student newspaper of the Williams and Mary, college, college of engineering. I I don't know the exact name.

PT is the current employer of the contact team. so the student newspaper interviewed the Shanta Kim and reported that, Stanford from the queue center is in 20.

So, we know that there's a few samples going forward. and, potentially a announcement or, or kind of, a paper in peer review that potentially could, could get peer reviewed. And, the interesting thing, Daniel, is is that, and I think maybe they didn't expect this, or maybe they did maybe maybe wanted. They got 1 hell of a peer review in 1, 1 hell of a period.

This was a super fast moodle labs around the world that are, like, replicating, presenting, which I don't know if they could expect that this amount of of, very, very smart scientists around the world trying to, like, pick every little need to pick in their paper and multiple papers. So I guess this essentially concludes episode, sorry, season 1 for all this. Right? So in the beginning, we, yeah, then go ahead and then and then we'll conclude.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I I went to to to the point of, of of peer review. I think there are 2 aspects, if you put ourselves in the shoes of Q Center, there are 2 very big things going on. And one is, yes, they got just peer viewed by Twitter, which is they I'm sure they didn't want it to be like this. the second thing is surprise. So they're ad I've been critical of their attitude in transparency and sharing, but we need to take into account one that This hit them by surprise. Maybe they don't have bandwidth.

Maybe they have obligations, commitments, and their their their contracts, and at the same time, they are in the process of peer review. And I think that if I'm not not correct, I'm not mistaken, they had one paper rejected from nature. They are in the process.

From this point of view, I would expect that they have some publication grade document, and and that could explain how come they were able to upload to archives only 2 hours after Quan But on the other hand, the thing they uploaded doesn't seem like something that would pass peer review in, in APS, especially because of the bold claims that it makes. So all this, well, is is I'm not I don't have a a clear conclusion from this, but but their situation must be complicated beyond what is, visible.

and and this can explain why their reaction isn't entirely coherent or clear to me.

And and forthcoming and public Yeah. The the the the definitely evidence that folks, you know, went to Q Center itself and knocked on the door And, I, you know, I can't speak for the folks there, but they don't seem like, you know, social media wizzes that knew this reaction. I don't know reaction could have been foreseen and definitely, you know, not only Twitter, also Facebook and LinkedIn, there's multiple places where this has been discussed. as number one topic. There was like prediction markets, and, this definitely exploding popularity, assumably way more than they could have handled. the website was taken down.

I'm not sure if the website was taken down because of just, like, many people visiting, or maybe they didn't wanna kinda expose the people there, to some more scrutiny. And then, you know, I think you you you raised a great point. Like, they could have been other commitments. They had they could have, like, know, it's a commercial place. so they could have an NDAs for for many of the stuff. And, you know, Twitter being Twitter, everybody's like, hey. They should provide this. They should do that, and I don't think they're reading these comments. and I I'm not sure about this.

Yeah. I can explain a bit about the, shutdown of their website. so originally, you can you can still view it on the, internet archive. So the originally website of the quantum energy research center include the the least top of partners, like the large companies in South Korea in Japan and also including Cantech. So naturally, South Korean reported, asked for the official of the company.

And every company except the Cantech denied that they have any relationship with the quantum energy resources center. But, that is pretty suspicious, but, benign explanation is that, quantum energy research center was established in 2008, that's, like, 15 years ago. And, according to themselves, they started to develop the room temperature superconductivity of temperature superconductor material only in 2017. That is, 6 year double.

So before that time in 9 years, this was an, research and development outsourcing company that does the pretty normal, research and development in, physics and chemistry. So all those companies may have been actual partner in a very normal research project, but it is very likely that the the reporters in the inquiry area was about the room temperature super super popular. And, of course, they denied go to they have no relationship.

So it was a very controversial, and they said that, they are on obvious, so proud because they listed the companies that don't have a relationship as partners. And I think they were just to tie all the arguing with that and shut down the website. That's our, a tentative conclusion at time.

Yep. For sure. And, there are some debates about whether or not, you know, they're coming out publicly after all these papers, and and proofs and, and potential explanations to what they could have seen, and we haven't seen any. And they don't owe anyone any as well. They'll be able to find to make sure that, you know, we're not getting other fraud, and it does not seem like this specifically. And we've talked about this multiple ties because of the ease of use of of recreating the sample and specifically because kind of the the messiness was explained to us. And, Daniel, like you said, it it was likely that they were preparing a paper.

It doesn't it doesn't make sense to write this length of paper in 2 hours and quickly upload So so this was a half baked thing. Maybe they rushed it. Maybe it was, like, very, very close to baked, and they rushed it. But definitely, some of it was was ready. and, yeah, I guess I guess we'll see if if and when we're see more from our from Q center, at least publicly, definitely, we'll keep watching for that. I think at this point, we're coming up on almost an hour. I don't see a huge reason to talk about this for multiple, multiple hours, like we did previous spaces.

I just want to say that, you know, we've tried to bring you, and as as you guys heard, Sanghyan and Daniel, and and every other person in the green room. It's at least we'll try to, reduce the hype and, well, some have tried to reduce the hype when I when I was typing. We'll definitely try to verify every sample, we had folks from multiple, multiple places around the world. in, in Korea, we have folks in China on the ground. We have folks in, in, you know, in Russia, in Israel, in in Madrid, many, many other places.

And it was really, really incredible to see the around the clock kind of collaboration and, I'm trying to find sources and trying to source and trying to figure out the truth. And, I personally learned a whole Like, not knowing anything coming into this. I've learned from folks, like like any on stage and some other folks, Eli Rabani, who joined all these spaces as a co host, and Sonja definitely, you know, became fast friends as well. Go ahead, Sonja. You you had your you had your hand raised.

Okay. So, things were quickly changing. So I just sort of stopped on the covering, the rapidly developing situation in South Korea media. But, like, the one thing we are sure always that, Q center which is a business, not the research institute, is pretty busy, like, there are public information on the business registry, like a company registry, and also they applied for the trademark.

So on this week, we are aware of 2 changes, 2 changes that she's center made. One is that so all the businesses need to register their business purpose and to change the business purpose of the joint store company, you need an, stockholders meeting and need to file the relevant papers And so queue center speed in its portfolio for 15 years was the research and development in PTX and chemistry and electrical engineering. and related the licensing of the intellectual property.

this week, they added the new business purpose to the business of a queue center that is inorganic chemical manufacturing, and organic chemical manufacturing, and also electric device manufacturing.

Also -- Oh, interesting.

Electric device. Yeah. That that that is very interesting. Like, you don't do that. If you don't actually intend to do that, it it is a lots of hassle. Like, that's a lot of paperwork and, meeting minute and, all the stockholders meeting and and etcetera. And they also applied to both local and international trademark Like, they already hold the trademark for the LK99. It is the registered trademark. And, actually, they put the r in the circle their paper, so something due to the archive. It is a registered trademark.

And all the trademarks need to specify like, it doesn't apply to to the old product. So they need to, specify which product category the trademark is intended to protect. So LK99's, trademark product category is the chemical substance like if other chemical substances and then the same as, okay, 1999, they can issue based on their right of trademark. And trade mark so so queue center is a pretty they don't have much money.

And trademark's offline and maintaining the require paying for speed. So AK99 was the only trademark they had for a while. And this week, they applied for 4 new trademarks, like the quantum energy research center that is written in Korean and in English and also 2 trade marks for choose center and the abbreviation QE for the quantum energy. And did the 4 trade marks the, you know, product category specification includes 2 products. 1 is the power transmission.

we already know they are intending to apply this power transmission from the relationship with the and another product category dates faced by this semiconductor. So, So we don't know whether yes.

Yes.

Yes. Yeah. So the debt that's a definitive. Like, so if they add the new product category, they need to pay more feet. So so they actually intend to do this. So we don't know whether the superconductor is real or not, but it is very, very certain that use then to strongly believe that they have a superconductor and they, formally intend to actually do the manufacturing themselves, not just the licensing the, intellectual property because they changed their business purpose.

And also they applied for local and global trademarks with the customer already expense, and they specified the power transmission and and she's semiconductor. So maybe, I mean, I mean, Cantech is, better positioned to the commercialized power transmission aspect in all aspects group that is very likely done by the Cantech, but based on, Circium's tangency, do we, suspected the queue center is aiming for the, LTE99 in semiconductor Manufacturing.

and now we have a t p negative evidence. So so like, why if you have a question, why doesn't Q Center engage with the academic community? The answer is that they are busy. they they are busy doing business. And, so so Chantakim is now part of the Q center. He's the professor in American University. So he's engaging with the, academic community. And I suspect the chief center just to redirect to all the scientific inquiry with just to to contact Kim.

And so so we have some events to look forward to in this month and next month. One is definitely the peer review currently in progress, with the likely submission of manuscript to APL materials. and another is the sampling in 20 to America.

And also another is that, we hired from the Russia iris Alexandra that, she replicated the non but she observed some levitation and, she said that she's working on a paper and we'll post 3 to add your pre print. So to do Jira the events to look forward to.

Also, So our discord Discord server is the finalizing the email to contact team so so by all evidence, the Chandra team is more comfortable with the Korean than English. So we are writing an email in Korean. And we are asking, so Shichanta Kim is a correspondent officer.

So as an, public review, I email the multiple archival paper or also for high poacher, you know, interested in the past, but this is much larger than that, but we are going to ask Krishna Kim to be aware of the paper from Chinese Academy of Sciences, and we we say that we all heartedly agree with their recommendation. of including both warming and cooling carb.

So so maybe we get a reply or maybe not like So the most likely, situation is that Tantan Kim's email inbox is a follow marriage from the all over the world, then we will be ignored. But if we get a reply, I will report it so that those are the events to report to That's that's incredible, Sankan.

And, so first of all, so so just to kinda sum up, because he said multiple things. First of all, queue center applied for, trademarks. And that's, not a cheap process, and they've been busy applying. While the world is trying to replicate kind of whatever, was recent to papers. They've been busy applying, and, they have a relationship with contact who has a sample and the potential working applications. While all this is happening, Juntakim was also talking about the fact that they have a superconductor keeps talking about this. He gets interviews.

I think there's 2 interviews in Korean media, at least and he continues kind of it's not like he has evidence of of, we don't know if he's aware you you said something. Right? We don't know if he's aware, of of the many replication attempts. He's aware of some of them, at least But queue center folks are busy and they're working the websites down, but, potentially, they're gearing up, or it's gonna production on on, and some applications of some of these stuff. And potentially, we're looking forward to to to look for, to to see some stuff coming up from them. So I will say, a few things.

So first of all, all of the, you know, betting markets, all of the, kind of, discourse in public kind of died down. Many people kind of said, okay, there's nothing there. It's all it's all hoax. it does not seem hoaxy at least to to some extent. so we'll see maybe the continuation of QCenter. The the business is keep is running and trade down trademarks are registered and potentially see some reply after things died down, or maybe the website is gonna go up. I will say to folks here who probably already are in our community, if you're not, we have like this community on Twitter.

If you're tired of posting on your main account, but you still wanna communicate with folks and ask questions, to our communities is the way there's 800 people, obviously, when things were going steady and all the evidence were going towards, oh, we haven't. this community was growing, but still feel free to just join there. I'm gonna ask folks to to maybe translate, maybe new evidence, fake videos of 2 seconds for for ADP resolution will not be very much accepted. They don't add anything to the discussion anymore. we know the potential for, limitation. We know how many fix were posted.

but, definitely, for Sunnyham and Sunnyham, just just to call out how much of an incredible work you guys been doing in your moving forward. In addition to all this, you guys also went deep into kind of researching the origins of this, which also helped highlight that, you know, we're not dealing with necessarily fraudsters. And these have been people who've been talking about, they have this for a long time. One one last thing I wanna ask, Sanjay and Daniel, maybe proof of it to each one to to join. I saw somewhere that, see, a copper sulfide was mentioned in the patents and not necessarily in the papers. So so we have multiple documents from Q center. Right?

So we have 2 or 3 patents, and we have, one Korean paper and 2 English papers, and then we have some stuff in in between. There was a, a quan had a like, a report to ministry of education or something like this in Korean and also. So we have, like, multiple surrounding evidence as well. The one thing that I wanted to ask you if you guys kind of followed up or researched or saw is that this copper sulfide was mentioned in both, the, the patterns.

And I wanna understand if Junakim kind of, you know, is is into this, he's a scientist, and he's, like, the world infected person, whether or not the mentioned in patterns changes anything in terms of, what we take from kind of the Chinese economy of sciences paper, or we still think even though they mentioned this, they may have met that one property of face transition that could explain all this.

I mean, there is an Xrd x-ray diffraction. And copper sulfide is the training, basically, in Xrd. So they are no they are aware of that impurity that that is beyond doubt, but that does not necessarily mean that Q center is aware of the possibility of the, sudden drop of resistance from copper sulfide to the impurity. that is actually one topic. I am going to ask about which contact came in a email. So single crossed.

Awesome. And, yeah, go ahead, Daniel.

Yeah. Just to add because everything, said is is true. And in a normal peer review process, it would be asked at least to justify, you know, here's factor that could interfere with your results. if there's a specific experiment you can do to disprove that it interferes, do that, or at least, mention and dis and and discuss and make a case at least verbally based on, some principles why you think this is not disturbing your results.

And in the preprints, this is not present.

Awesome. Okay. So I guess, Yeah. I I guess we've covered most of it. Sanghani, if there's anything else you wanted to add, Daniel, anything else you want to add or folks in the audience, if if you have any specific thing, the witness and it's worth noting on the left episode of the season. I don't wanna leave a cliffhanger. I wanna kinda wrap up well on this and then say that other updates. We'll go out in, you know, definitely follow-up on, you know, his his team general community. There will be more papers, I'm sure, Daniel. Right? Like, acted like the world, or at least the Twitterverse stopped, continuously trying to replicate and figure out everything, is beside the point.

There will be folks trying to, like, review this. There will be folks trying to replicate more. There will be folks like trying to, to to do some more attempts. So, something, go ahead.

Give us your your parting thoughts and then -- Yeah. So so I want to finish, you know, a bit of lighter notes. Like, we had a lot of fun, and having jokes. And so so South Korea has a weekly magazine called the current affairs, which is quite popular. And so so there is a a right wing to left to wing spectrum in South Korea and current software is, in is in a rather extreme end of the left wing.

And, it is a weekly magazine and it include the, comic on every issue of the current event that happened in the last week. and, someone that's drawing Komi is called Kupsinist. it means in Korean, something like a body bending artist. and, he is a quiet aware of the or the animation and fan fandom reference it.

And so he need through on new comic on the top peak of room temperature for conductor 1899. So so I posted that to my account and did an English translation. And he drew a comic based on the uh-uh English in nursery rhyme called and pigs and beans, root pig beans and barley grow.

So so it starts something like this that, lead this copper's best friend, lead this co person's best friend to I or you or anyone know whether why Lee, this call per space to friends to enjoy the comic and the song.

Awesome. And that's that's very funny. So, I will, again, say, folks has done incredible work in researching that in bringing everything. Sanyan started, like, joining the first place and wasn't ready, to to talk and and, Sonny, I really appreciate your participation here. I, you know, this was not remotely as informative. Had you not been here? And, I appreciate your time as well. The the amount of research that you and your folks team did definitely help folks kinda wrap their heads around, this whole endeavor. Daniel feel free to kinda give us your parting thoughts.

I will maybe prompt you a little bit in here is that I don't remember myself getting as excited about I don't remember many, many folks talking about kind of your areas before, and I find it very interesting, right, the amount of stuff that we all have to kind of you know, read up and learn and potentially gonna inspire folks to, to to do different things. And, yeah, I I would love to hear from you kind of how you how you felt around this issue for the past 2 weeks?

Well, think of it this way. I have a PhD in material science, and I have been this excited about science in years. and even more so, by seeing other people excited and and curious, and learning and myself learning all maybe stuff that I should have learned during my PhD, but I didn't So, I caught up with a lot of, theory and physics and, and and synthesis, which was not part of my PhD.

And I think this what the and and and reminder of how much potential there is in material science, and and how much, like, fusion is a material science problem, no matter how you look at it, even if it's helion and if it's tokamak and and energy crisis and, carbon capturing. so many life changing technologies hang on materials and their processing. And that this was a very powerful reminder of that.

And, I definitely hope that for many, many folks kind of the popularization of science, and excitement helps them to kind of lean into this. And maybe I'll connect to something gonna close a dear, to my heart. And maybe the reason why I joined all of this, like I said in the beginning, I'm not a remotely scientist. I I flunked all of my physics in in in school. And, what I do on day to day is removing language barriers. And the amount of worldwide global participation around this topic was just incredible. amount of people translating was just incredible.

And I I can just imagine how many scientific progress we can get once everybody kinda collaborates, not necessarily in open like this because, you know, there's some drawbacks to participating in the open. They're they're trolling. There's, you know, fake news. There's, like, this hype brings with it, you know, pluses and minuses. So but on the pluses side, I think it was incredible to see how much collaboration can happen, how quickly people from different expertise in different areas, different, places can collaborate and and talk point out things and and, ask for clarifications and maybe support.

The amount support that Andrew got, like, from the internet and then, you know, scientists that reached out to him just because, like, he was, replicating this in the open. He opened, like, a, I don't know, a form and everybody joined. it was incredible And the way I come into this is that, you know, I I built a room to remove, like, with barriers, not necessarily for science, not necessarily for the positive, when I started it was for Ukraine and to help the world kinda understand different places around the world. However, the same thing applied here. Targum, you know, helped at least some of the videos get translated it fast. And I I was really happy to kind of participate. At some point, I don't know if you remember it in the green room.

At some point, I was like, just the the moderator got the facilitator of the conversation and and the host. and at some point, when video started to come out, I was like, oh, here's my time. Here's something I can actually help with, not the science part, not the other stuff, just like breaking the language barriers and walls, and, I think we're going there. And the reason for my excitement was, obviously, benefits here if this actually materializes are incredible. but, you know, separately from this, I'm also doing the AI spaces and, there there's multiple things that are happening in the world in science, in technology, in other other places that they're advancing with insane pace.

Now this was an outlier. This insanity of a pace of, like, a 12 day ramp up and, you know, explosion popularity in virality and meme potential for this whole thing was definitely an outlier. However, even in other places, changes are happening faster and faster. So we're doing spaces for AI every week. And from week to week, we're getting better, better results in open source models in in different, kind of areas as well. If, again, just a shout out folks are interested in that part of my life and not this necessarily, feel free to follow me and follow her ThursdAI. I there's also a podcast there. And I came into this from that perspective. Well, like, Hey, there's many, many changes.

A lot of them are happening in the open now on Twitter. A lot of them are happening in different languages and different kind of communities, different, cultures as well. And, you know, we have this, and I posted the Tweet. Twitter is the information superconductor. Right? We we have these tools now to collaborate and get the news quick very, very fast and and react to them. And we've seen that Twitter and many folks, like, in our green room reacted and started, like, reading into this way before the media even woke up And then the New Year started reporting, many factual things were wrong, and we're already, like, talking about, you know, this paper was released, then this paper was released.

The first paper was So when you a bunch of the information way before then it was reported, and I think this is kinda what I loved about this whole thing specifically, in addition to a world changing, you know, potentiality that added to this mix, I participate I personally enjoy just like facilitating this conversation, learning as much as I learned, and helping folks understand and build a community around this. So I think with these parting words, you know, this is the end of season 1. There is places to go yet. Q Center is still a commercial place. It's it's not done yet. Nobody came out and said, you know what? You were right.

We didn't notice, copper sulfide paste transition, and this was the reason to the whole thing. We're so sorry. Nobody came out, from Q center said, like, this is done on their part. They're still, like, they're aware of copper sulfide maybe. we're not sure if they're aware of this specific thing. And follow Sanhuyeon, hopefully, he'll get a response. Sanhuyeon, I will just say, we have multiple people who are connected to to Hyuntak, maybe ask them to DM him Also, and tell them, like, about your email, Eli Rabani is connected to HyunTak now and, and Daniel, Andrew McGallo is connected so definitely reach out. But with that folks, I will say that I really enjoyed all of you joining the space and talking to us, joining the community talking to us.

The community alive. It's floatyrocks.fm . If there's gonna be breaking news, you know, we're gonna cover it first. Right? Like, you know, that you you don't have to wait until major, you know, publishers, we're gonna let you know. but for now, I think the intensity is applying to all of us as well. Many of us didn't sleep for a while. Many like, try to follow, news around, around the world around, like, 24 hour cycle. literally, we had, like, the the the room chats were buzzing. And I think it's time to, like, conclude this season 1. it's not the result that we wanted. Definitely. we were, very, very much excited.

However, we we do wanna see the potential of of the good in this and the hype can be benefit in in the drawback. I I see a lot of the benefit in the hype, and hopefully, you too. And there's multiple other ways that the humanity progresses across. one thing I will call out is one time thing. I think we had somebody who who left in the audience. The type two superconductors that we currently have that we know it, and we use them in MRIs and in other places. They have been continuously progressing toward higher and higher temperatures, right, They're not close to anything room temperature, but they still progress, and there's still, like, progress now.

Potentially, all of this excitement will help money flow in there and capitalism will do its thing. And that area of of research in type 2 superconductors will also progress. Right? So we may have with with our hype, we may have helped kinda get humanity there. Maybe not as fast as we've hoped, but definitely progress there. many people people get excited. Maybe entrepreneurs got excited. I know our inboxes are full of of people who want to do research and who and I asked about, experts and expertise definitely folks here doing thumbs up. So, hopefully, this is not the end of this whole thing.

also watch out one of the benefits that everybody was talking superconductor in room temperature was potentially application for fusion reactors. You know, we're waiting for some around fusion reactors from Helion energy and some other places. even without room temperature, cheap superconductors, that area has been heating up and potentially will have some benefits as well. So there's a lot of room for positivity, right? Like, Sanhuyeon you wanted to end on a positive note, lets fucking go on a positive note. Yeah. It's progressing. And the DFTs that we saw, and Daniel, you know, he talked about DFTs, which is like simulations of materials that whole area is progressing.

We have multiple folks on spaces that said, hey, even without this, the the rate that AI is going forward, we'd be able to simulate in, like, try to find different areas, yeah, like, like crazy going forward. And these methods are just getting better and better. And there's no physics barrier to room temperature dependent activity. This is one thing that I learned. Nothing prevents it from a physics perspective. It just, you know, we need to search more. And hopefully, all this excitement got people to start thinking about this.

Got, you know, capitalism to to to look into this corner, start, like, funneling funds and and maybe going somewhere, Q center is still not done and has a applied for registered trademarks, potentially more patents. So we'll see some more stuff. I think with this, I really wanna thank you all of you. this is this is not wish myself to even be here, Daniel, you know, I appreciate you so much, man. You helped me, like, to understand that even before you joined the room, I copied pasted stuff and asked you, and you were very, yeah, happily helping me. So definitely a new friend that I have, you know, some questions. Sanhuyeon, I showed my appreciation to you multiple times, and I consider you my Korean friend, my wife knows about you.

This is so awesome to have this friendship with you. And all of you in the audience, who joined our community, who joined the spaces, who listen to the podcast, feel free to keep sending us stuff to keep updates if you see something that we've missed and suddenly it opens up a whole new thing, you know, season 2. We can talk about season 2. We definitely talk about season 2. but with that, I wanna finish because we've been at this for an hour a half, and everybody deserves a good rest.

so I appreciate all of you. Thanks so much. Yeah. so so I I also want a closing comment, like, as Alex pointed out, Nothing in physics prevents the room temperature superconductor. So as a iris Alexandra likes to tell day on our Twitter account, it's a skill issue. Like, it's a skill issue. So try harder.